Austin Mackell (of The Moon Under Water) is an Australian
journalist based in Cairo who reports on Egyptian politics, the
labour movement and life on the street. In February he was arrested
in the city of Mahalla el-Kubra while reported on an attempted
general strike of workers. I spoke to Austin on the 30th of May; this interview will appear in Green Left Weekly.
What are the latest developments
with the Presidential elections – what do the first round results
show, and is it clear who will be contesting the second round?
The first round of the elections show
that the Muslim Brotherhood and the remnants of the old regime, the
felool, are still able to out-compete the revolutionaries in terms of
an electoral process.
The winner by a small margin was the
Muslim Brotherhood's candidate, Mohamed Morsi, and second was Ahmed
Shafik, who was Prime Minister under Mubarak appointed at the very
last minute of his regime's life. It looks now like the final race
will be between those two candidates, which is a huge disappointment
for the revolutionaries.
There was a left-wing secular candidate
called Hamdi Sabahi, who was written off by many people as an outside
because he didn't have the resources and infrastructure many of the
other candidates had – he came in third. Considering that he was
also competing for the vote with Abul Fotouh, an Islamist who had
split from the Brotherhood towards the moderate side who was also
considered a revolutionary candidate – those two between them, if
they'd had a combined revolutionary vote they would have had a clear
lead.
Of course many of the revolutionaries
boycotted the first round. I wonder if they are questioning that
seeing how close Sabahi came to winning it.
Secondly, now there's a much stronger
call for a boycott as well, since it's the Muslim Brotherhood versus
the old regime. There's been some controvery over some
revolutionaries saying to back the Muslim brotherhood because at
least they aren't from the old dictatorship, while others are saying
no, they already have control of the parliament, handing them control
of the presidency as well would be handing over too much control at
the formative stage. In any case, most revolutionaries, in terms
of people who have been active on the streets, are still saying
the street is where the battle has to happen for the next few years –
that's the position of the April 6 youth movement. That's why they
didn't contest the elections, they say that you don't have elections
during a revolutionary phase, the revolution has to be more complete.
Who is exactly is Hamdi Sabahi? What
does he stand for?
Sabahi is the founder of the Dignity
party; he was an MP under President Mubarak, he won a seat in 2005,
though he's credited as being one of the few voices of resistance in
that parliament asides from the Brotherhood. He really ran as the
poor man's candidate. His party is Nasserist; carrying on the spirit
of pan-arab socialism would be his root ideology, although it's
moderated and the message is much more populist and nasserist than
ideological
How widely was the boycott observed?
It's hard to know how widely it was
observed; it's clear that the turnout was lower than the
parliamentary election, which some revolutionaries have called a
victory because it means the population is losing faith in SCAF's
electoral process. But you could also make the argument that that was
simply the result of the Salafi candidate Abbou Ismael being
disqualified ahead of the poll. Because the Salafists didn't have a
candidate to vote for – some voted for Abol Fotouh, or for Morsi,
but you can imagine a lot of them were a lot less motivated to vote
not having a major Salafi candidate on the ballot. This would also
explain why there was what's been considered a majority secular vote,
if you add up Sabahi, Shafik and Amr Moussa, the former foreign
minister, which people have been using to say Egyptians have turned
to secular candidates. But you can question that because the Salafis
may have been sitting out as well.
That has probably been a bigger boycott
(although it may not have been phrased that way) than the active
calls for a boycott from Tahrir Square and the revolutionary youth
networks around it. However, that being said, now that it's a race
between Morsi and Shafik you might see a much bigger boycott in the
second round.
What is the situation with Tahrir
Square and the revolutionary layer? Is the Square still occupied?
There's basically a constant occupation
now in Tahrir Square with people protesting – earlier today they
had at least a few hundred there protesting due to allegations of
fraud by Shafik. In fact, there's been reports of fraud by both
Shafik and Moussa as well as the Brotherhood by April 6 and various
news outlets as well. But the general impression is that there was a
lot of small irregularities but not necessarily enough to have
influenced the vote. It doesn't mean there was a concerted plan to
rig the campaigns, but perhaps just the kind of dirty campaigning you
see everywhere.
Some people are protesting of that –
a lot of them, Sabahi's supporters – but the Square's been pretty
much permanently occupied since the clashes of the Occupy Cabinet
incident in early December. All throughout 2011 there was an ongoing
struggle for physical control of the Square, and now it seems the
army and the police have pretty much given up on it. The protesters
were allowed to keep the central island with tents, as well as the
space in front of the central administrative building the Mogamma.
So the revolutionary youth won that
space in those clashes, and actually now we've seen the latest
clashes taking place outside the ministry of defence, which occured
just before the elections. There were numbers of Salafis
demonstrating because their candidate Abbou Ismael had been
disqualified, actually on the basis that his mother was an American
citizen – which some were disputing, claiming there's a conspiracy
against him, etc etc.
Either way his supporters went down to
protest the decision at the electoral commission, and they were
joined by secular supporters and opponents of the SCAF as well; there
were 11 deaths reported there, in the final week before the election.
There is still definitely real tension on the streets and the
possibility of more of these battles – particularly if Shafik wins, I might add.
I should add that the significance of
protest moving to the MOD is that the protesters are moving more into
more confrontation – we've got Tahrir now and that's great, now
let's move on the next seat of power, seems to be the idea.
Is the Brotherhood taking out the
presidential election likely to change the balance of power or weaken
SCAF's hold over the country?
That's very difficult to know – it's
certainly going to change the balance of power. What the relationship
between the brotherhood and the military will be like and how it'll
evolve is really difficult to know. People are talking about some
kind of deal being made between the Brotherhood and the SCAF –
there's probably been all kinds of deals made, but I don't think that
there's a marriage between the two about to take place where we see
them unite as the stable new elite, although something like that may
evolve. Really we're in a period when making predictions is a good
way to look stupid; if you look at the polling during the last
election votes fluctuated wildly in the days before the elections.
Things are really in flux here, there aren't established political
forces like we're used to dealing with in Australia. There is the
brotherhood and there is the military but there's this huge chaotic
force at work in the political sphere as well of the revolution.
How has the labour movement related
to the elections?
The one thing that was clear after the
parliamentary elections was that until now the labour movement as a
whole hadn't emerged on scene as any sort of political force. But
with the emergence of Sabahi as such a strong candidate, there's
certainly evidence that this is on the cards in the future. This was
a suprise to many here, including people like me with an interest in
the labour movement, as we didn't see anything like this gaining
support in the parliamentary elections – but there's clearly an
affinity for labour in Sabahi's platform, in what he's standing for.
We don't know how real that would be if he got into power, of course.
His candidacy underlines the new dynamics which are starting to
emerge – there are the candidates like Moussa and Shafik, whose
primary qualifications are having served in the old regime, and whose
popularity has its own reasons like name recognition – but if you
remove them from the equation you have the Muslim Brotherhood and
Islamic conservatism on the right and then Arab nationalism on the
left, and then you have a candidate like Abol Fotouh in the middle
who is some kind of mix of all of those. So this is a political
spectrum very similar to ours – although with such population and
poverty in Egypt there's a lot more space for leftward movement,
which is exciting.
Did any radical left forces make a
decent showing in the results?
That depends how you define "radical"
– there was Khaled Ali, who was seen as the revolution's candidate.
How radical his rhetoric exactly would be I'm not clear on – I
haven't seen many of his speeches translated – but my impression is
he's been seen as the candidate of the revolutionary youth, so
radical in that sence, although certainly not as far to the left as
the Revolutionary Socialists, who didn't field a candidate, and who
now have gained a lot of ire for their leadership figures suggesting
Morsi should be backed to prevent the return of old leadership.
But the candidate on the left of note
was Sabahi – and his platform was significantly to the left. The
difference between Sabahi and Shafik or Moussa was much bigger than
the difference between major left and right candidates in any western
elections, so the revolutionary situation has already opened up more
democratic space than we already have in the west. His platform was
explicitly about wealth redistribution; instead of following the line
being tossed around by the IMF for cutting or "targetting"
subsidies, he's talking about the need to expand subsidies and
providing more services. His success has come as a surprise, and it
changes the political landscape. Of course the success of Shafik and
Morsi were also suprises and much more unpleasant ones.
What is the latest with your case?
Has the regime indicated if they are going to press the charges?
We're still not clear whether we'll be
taken to court or not; what we've got are preliminary charges – the
Egyptian legal system is modelled on the French, so it doesn't really
mirror Australia's. The charges are with the prosecutor's office, who
is then meant to decide whether it goes to court or the case is
archived. That's been the case for the last 3 months, and there
hasn't been any real progress – we've heard of paper moving from
one office to another, so we don't know when to expect any
resolution.
Are you free to travel and report?
To an extent – my passport was taken
when I was arrested, and it's being held along with my laptop and
camera and other stuff, so it makes it quite difficult to move
around. In the initial period after my arrest I was quite nervous
when moving around of being recognised in the street as the spy from
TV; I was kicked out my apartment and my neighbourhood has sort-of
turned against me after our story was flashed on state TV. It's
already been made quite difficult for journalists in general, foreign
journalists in particular, by virtue of all of the media about
foreign conspirators and such. And if I were in the situation where I
had to explain myself to a large group of people why I don't have my
passport, what I'm doing, etc etc – it's a situation which might
complicate things with the case. But the main thing is that I'm not
allowed to leave the country while this is going on – I can't
travel home to Australia or anywhere else, which is an inconvenience.
But there's a veiled threat in all of this; we're very confident we
would win if the case went to court, but however improbable it is,
this notion of 5 to 7 years sentence is in the back of your mind; it
makes it hard to live a normal life, let alone work or move around.
What do you have to say to Bob Carr
and the Australian government?
I wish Bob Carr would take a more
active interest in the case. He's been very standoffish and hasn't
responded to any of my friends, family or supporters – even through
the union, I was only able to get what looked like a form letter our
of him saying they can't interfere with the Egyptian legal process.
On the other hand, the motion introduced by Greens Senator Lee
Rhiannon to the Senate was passed calling on the Australian
government to ensure due process was followed. I don't know how much
information Bob Carr has about the case; you at Green Left probably
are quite aware that what is happening is anything but due process.
From the beginning this is an act of political thuggery, not a matter
of law an order. The Australian government should have the gonads to
speak out on that, as it should have for all of the human rights
abuses committed by the Egyptian forces and all of the remnants of
the old regime. But there's a silence on that, as there is on so many
other issues, because Washington says to be quiet about it, so we do.
My case is nothing compared to what
happened to people like David Hicks or Mamdouh Habib. Habib was
brought to Egypt – he didn't come here of his own free will but was
"rendered" or kidnapped here, and tortured for 6 months. He
has alleged the Australian government was complicit in that, and they
certainly still haven't cleared their name of that. You can see that
today with the case of Julian Assange, or with our case here – the
government certainly doesn't hold the rights of it's citizens as its
first priority.